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Forum:Chapter release dates
A good part of the chapter pages doesn't have a full date, but only the year. Does anybody know where we can find those dates? Or are we doomed to have just the year? I've been looking into that. While I cannot find a place for all the chapters, I found a way to fill in at least some of them. We have a list of jump issues that have One Piece characters on the covers. Better yet, we have images of the covers as well as the issue number. We can start from there, filling in those, and then working from there as far as we can. It would ultimately be a stall tactic to make progress while we look for something more absolute. 04:52, July 5, 2012 (UTC) New Discussion Update: Greg from One Piece podcast recently released a table with each Jump's issue release date and Oda's comments on Jump. That said, he explicitly said he did not grant the use of his translation of Oda's comments (as they are in English) on other sites, also I felt he was implicitly talking about us in his introduction. Aside the comments, I fell there is no problem with updating the chapter release dates, although I think as token of thanks we should add a reference with the URL to that page (since it's actually the only source available). I think we should leave the comments matter aside, as we cannot use his translation, but we didn't have that sort of informations on the wiki to begin with, so I don't think it's a problem. I remember that I used scanlation sites for some of them since OneManga use to have Jump releases alongside the scanlation release. I don't think sites do that anymore. SeaTerror (talk) 20:36, April 4, 2013 (UTC) Let's get adding the release dates. 21:35, April 9, 2013 (UTC) Bump... 04:19, April 11, 2013 (UTC) Well, I think it would be really important for us to have these dates. But it's a question of whether or not Greg would have a problem with us using them as a source. Has anyone thought about contacting him about it? If someone does, it should be someone who wasn't around when the wiki first had problems with him. 04:30, April 11, 2013 (UTC) Guess that's you volunteering. 04:57, April 11, 2013 (UTC) :I know nothing of this podcast, nor any way to contact Greg. So someone else should probably do it. And that's only if other users even think it's a good idea to contact him. 11:56, Apri 11, 2013 (UTC) There is no problem in using the dates as long we add the reference, Greg just doesn't want other to use their translations of Oda's comments. I should inform anyone who don't know this yet or forgot but Greg hates One Piece Wikia and had been a dick to us multiple times over the years. My bet is if we ask him, he'll say no and probably in a jackass way. If we don't ask him, he'll accuse us of stealing it from him in a jackass way too. 22:11, April 11, 2013 (UTC) Then you'll be glad to know that I found something that throws a monkey wrench into his little site. From our own archives, we have the cover of the Shonen Jump featuring chapter 1. as seen here. It is issue 34, with a listed release date of August 4th, 1997. Not, July 29th, as our hateful colleague has so confidently published. While his dates might be wrong, I think we can use his issue and chapter numbers in conjunction with the 61 jump covers we have on here. While not complete, it will serve as a helpful jumping off point since then we will only have to fill in the gaps. 22:58, April 11, 2013 (UTC) :You do realize that the dates on SJ covers aren't the release dates right? Take the most recent cover that featured One Piece: Issue 18, in which Chapter 703 was serialized. The cover says April 15, while the issue was actually released on April 1. Then, if you look at the top-left corner of the image, it has both dates in small text. Most of the other images for Jump covers on the wiki are too small to read that text, so they can't be used as a reference. Greg's dates are most likely accurate, the only issue is whether he would allow them to be used. 04:18, April 12, 2013 (UTC) Well. That solves that issue. 04:32, April 12, 2013 (UTC) Newer Discussion After This post from Greg we need to discuss this more. It seems obvious that whoever added the information got it from Greg's list, so I think it's obvious that we should cite his list for the dates that were changed. As far as English tranlsations are concerned, these release dates are not common knowledge, and proper citiation protocol is that we should cite any information that is not common knowledge. Also, since these things were only changed after Greg's table was made, it's obvious that the info came from him anyways, so we should cite him because it's the right thing to do. And should anyone else want to know how we got the dates, they can see how we did get them. This wiki's past difficulties with Greg are not related to this issue. It's his work, and it deserves to be cited. There's no reason not to cite it. Citing the information is the best result for all parties. 19:49, July 29, 2013 (UTC) :JSD, that link you posted is the wrong link. It only lead to this forum, and I see no posts from Greg. 20:51, July 29, 2013 (UTC) ::Fixed it. Thanks, Jade. 20:53, July 29, 2013 (UTC) I don't understand what the discussion is about... just add/update the release dates and provide references with a link to Greg's table. :Should we make a template (which includes a banner at the bottom of pages that use his translations) to reference him?-- ::Don't need to - we can just edit the Chapter box template to include a qref, then use a bot to add a references section to every chapter page. I edited the template it yesterday to make it so that mousing over the date provided the reference in a tooltip (as a temporary measure because the pages don't have reference sections yet), but ST undid because he's ST. 04:49, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I remember he posted all of the dates on a thread. We could just put the external to the thread in the qref. That way we're still crediting him, but we don't have to go as far as making a banner or anything. 06:12, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Personaly I would only except what DP said as an option, I will not feed that wankers ego. 06:21, July 30, 2013 (UTC) We don't have to cite him nor should we. Greg is just a fan as anybody else and could have easily made up everything. We don't credit manga sites for chapter summaries going up. SeaTerror (talk) 06:23, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Could be bullshit for all we know, almost everything that he posts is complete and utter bullshit. 06:28, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I'm fine with the solution put forward by Zodiaque. 06:31, July 30, 2013 (UTC) With my external link idea added in, right? 06:36, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Actually stratch that, he shouldn't get anything. 06:46, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Yeah Dp. 06:48, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I'm pretty sure we don't even add references to chapter and episode pages in the first place. SeaTerror (talk) 06:57, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I have to agree with ST on that. It looks strange just having one reference for a lot of pages for someone who seems to hold a grudge against us. Could it be possible that we could just place it in one page? 08:09, July 30, 2013 (UTC) || | |1}} |3|0}}}} :That was part of my rationale for the tooltip - it's less obtrusive and removes the need for a separate references section. It looks like this: :To all the people saying screw Greg, you're saying that a childish grudge over something that happened years ago is reason enough to not have the chapter release dates for hundreds of chapters - information without which we can't call ourselves a One Piece encyclopedia. If you're willing to fly to Japan yourself at your expense and contact Shueisha to personally research the dates then sure, we can put them on the page without references. Assuming that you're not, his request for attribution is fair. 13:56, July 30, 2013 (UTC) We shouldn't place those references anywhere. We really should not cite him as a source. SeaTerror (talk) 08:48, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Obviously, his request is fair. Putting the external link to the thread DP mentioned is the best way; the tooltip is fine as a temporary measure. Just ignore ST's jimmies being rustled and go ahead. Let's try and look less like we're in a school playground. Seriously. Honestly, guys. He did good work, and we ended up using it. He deserves the credit. And he was decent enough to message us simply asking us to cite him, and he wasn't an angry dick about it, and he didn't dwell on the past, so we should do the same. And for those of you saying the information could be wrong, then by citing him, we show that he is the one who's wrong, not us. (Though I sincerely doubt it's wrong anyways). 14:54, July 30, 2013 (UTC) I still not understand what's the problem here... we have to cite the source of those dates and since the only source available now is Greg's page, we cite that. It's just that simple. On my wiki, I already added way back those dates with a simple reference as "The One Piece Podcast", as you can see here. If other sources were available, we would use them, but there is no much of a choice. By the way, we don't cite HIM, we just add the link to that page, nothing more. That looks pretty good. 09:39, July 31, 2013 (UTC) :I really like those reference popups (that's actually the effect I wanted - a popup box like on wikipedia instead of a tooltip, and when I searched for a way to do it I saw your post on the central community wiki). If it was possible to do it like that here it would be great. 09:56, July 31, 2013 (UTC) That would be very annoying. 10:00, July 31, 2013 (UTC) What SHB said. The reasons for not adding them have already been mentioned. SeaTerror (talk) 10:04, July 31, 2013 (UTC) Let's do it then. Pretty clear majority in favor. 13:40, July 31, 2013 (UTC) The ReferencePopups has nothing to do with our problem. ST, you just said "let's not add them", not much for a reason. The problem is simple: by posting the dates, we claim we know them. As with everything else, we have to provide the source of that information since it's not obvious. If those dates are made up, it's not our fault because we said we took them from there, but if they are made up and use them anyway without providing the source, we are now the ones who made them up. As I said, just add a simple reference with the link, we can even don't mention him or the site, as long there is the link. There is definitely no clear majority. Also I said we cannot provide a source on chapter articles because are rule is not to allow references on chapter and episode articles. If anything it can only go on the Chapters and Volumes article. Also you definitely didn't read this forum if you think that was my reason. Everything I and SHB said is 100% true. SeaTerror (talk) 18:21, July 31, 2013 (UTC) There's no clear opinion here, why not make this a poll? 18:22, July 31, 2013 (UTC) Because chapter release dates are something the wiki needs to have. And they're definitely not made up - not only did Greg compile the list of release dates, but he compiled a list of every Shonen Jump author's comment Oda has ever made, which would have required far more effort. Given that he would have had to look at archival copies of every magazine to get those, there is absolutely zero reason to believe he is lying about the dates, which are trivial to obtain by comparison (but still impossible for us). 18:33, July 31, 2013 (UTC) About the no refs on chapter and episode pages rule, it's being misinterpreted slightly. We originally added it because people for whatever reason were starting to cite the chapter as the source material on that chapter page. For example, let's say in chapter 297 (throwing a random number out there) Luffy had some errands to run. It's mentioned in the summary as it should be, and then sourced, so that in the reference section at the bottom, it reads "Chapter 297, Luffy does this, this, and this." You're using the chapter to cite itself, which is ridiculous. That was the original problem it addressed. However, this time we're not citing any fact or data from the story, but rather the release date of the magazine, completely unrelated to the events in the story. I suppose the same would also apply to episode articles as well. 18:34, July 31, 2013 (UTC) It is still the rules which is the issue. SeaTerror (talk) 18:54, July 31, 2013 (UTC) Polling this would be very stupid. If we do, it would have to be minimum a week, since two weeks is a stupid amount of time for something like this. 03:19, August 1, 2013 (UTC) There is no general consensus so poll it and get it over with. 07:06, August 1, 2013 (UTC) We still have to decide on the poll length. SeaTerror (talk) 07:32, August 1, 2013 (UTC) Standard poll length, just like anything else. 16:33, August 1, 2013 (UTC) Doesn't need to be a poll unless you can come up with a valid reason not to use the dates. "I don't like Greg" is not a valid reason. 16:57, August 1, 2013 (UTC) @ST Even if it's the rule to not have refs on chapter articles, if we agree to do so, then the rule simply changes to allow refs for the date. We made the first rule as a wiki, so we have the authority to change it in the face of new challenges for the wiki. In regard to a poll, there's not yet a clear majority here because not that many editors have posted here about the issue. Though I think if people did, there probably would be one. And I completely agree with Zodiaque that there has not been decent agrument against referencing yet. And has anyone actually responded to Greg? If nobody has, he might just be seeing this as us ignoring him, which could inspire him to take stronger action against us, likely in the form of reporting us to Central Wikia. It seems really stupid to poll this, because NOT referencing him could get us into trouble with Central (and not because Greg could "tattle", but because we are choosing to not reference something that must be referenced). 17:00, August 1, 2013 (UTC) :Thanks for reminding to check the Chapter box template page to undo ST's daily removal of the references for the release dates that are already up. Can an admin lock the template and/or ban SeaTerror? This is getting annoying. 17:06, August 1, 2013 (UTC) Just typical lies about not having a valid reason coming from Zodiaque. Even if that was the case it wouldn't matter since if enough people want a poll to go up then a poll goes up. That would have to be on a different forum so more people would see it. It wouldn't be good to vote on that rule here. Also that is completely false. Greg LITERALLY cannot do anything because chapter release dates are not something somebody can copyright. Central wouldn't do anything. For the last thing: it is your fault for adding them when the original version of the template does not have them. The only reason it should be locked is to prevent you from readding them until the poll is over. SeaTerror (talk) 18:30, August 1, 2013 (UTC) Just ignore ST, he's the only one against it as usual. 18:37, August 1, 2013 (UTC) You obviously didn't read the forum. SeaTerror (talk) 18:42, August 1, 2013 (UTC) Adding them wouldn't be much work, would make the wiki more professional looking and wouldn't be detrimental in any way so why is adding these references such a problem for some people? Also I don't know what the problem with Greg was since I wasn't here then but it doesn't seem like that is relevent to this issue. 07:02, August 2, 2013 (UTC) We've still haven't come to a conclusion, so we should poll it already. Standard length since it's a rule for forums. I wouldn't mind the idea that Levi has at his wiki since it hides it, and only appears when you hover over it. Still don't believe we really need to have it on every chapter that we got it from Greg. Just one page will be fine. 08:17, August 2, 2013 (UTC) That's why I said at the most it should go on Chapters and Volumes article. The best option is still not to have them. SeaTerror (talk) 08:24, August 2, 2013 (UTC) Only 3 of you are against it, while the clear majority actually want to resolve this peacefully and not have a stupid poll. Just stop being immature for no reason so that things can actually get done. 08:55, August 2, 2013 (UTC) Because obviously the MAJORITY of users have commented here. SeaTerror (talk) 09:17, August 2, 2013 (UTC) ST, we know there's nothing Greg can legally do, we're not stupid. This is simply a matter of respecting a source and citing what would otherwise seem odd to have suddenly acquired overnight. The no sources in chapter pages has no bearing here because we're talking about information regarding the magazine itself, not events that took place in any single chapter. I don't care for him any more than you do, yet here I am, saying we should give him source credit. This is about respect and giving credit where credit is due, not how much you like the guy who did it. 09:20, August 2, 2013 (UTC) * "Also you definitely didn't read this forum if you think that was my reason. Everything I and SHB said is 100% true. SeaTerror (talk) 18:21, July 31, 2013 (UTC)" - Here the list of all your posts before mine: :They can be summed up as "don't cite that asshole". You vaguely mention something about that we don't usually add references, without even be sure yourself. Sorry for not catching that, but as usual it looks to me you just say what you think without caring to answer other argumentations. About that rule (which it would be nice to have a link to it) it's as DP said, it's misinterpreted. Worse case, we vote again to make an exception to allowing outside-chapter references. Really guys, citing sources has always been the main rule of thumb. I'm surprised we still even debating it, but if you really don't like it, then DON'T ADD those dates. * "That's why I said at the most it should go on Chapters and Volumes article. The best option is still not to have them. SeaTerror (talk) 08:24, August 2, 2013 (UTC)" - I don't understand how can we add that reference there since in that page there aren't the chapter release dates, only the volume ones. * "Only 3 of you are against it, while the clear majority actually want to resolve this peacefully and not have a stupid poll. Just stop being immature for no reason so that things can actually get done. 08:55, August 2, 2013 (UTC)" - I quote that. 3 out of ~12. Just cite him but do it in a small way. 08:20, August 3, 2013 (UTC) There is only one way: The One Piece Podcast or just http://www.thegrandline.com/odatocLIVE.htm. Or http://www.thegrandline.com/ or not at all. SeaTerror (talk) 19:41, August 3, 2013 (UTC) That won't do, you have to credit the exact page. The link to the exact page is further up in one of the older conversations. 20:17, August 3, 2013 (UTC) So let's credit the page. Why is this such a big deal? 20:19, August 3, 2013 (UTC) Because some people, as made apparent by the conversation above, have personal grudges against our source which are interfering with their judgment. 20:22, August 3, 2013 (UTC) That's ironic considering you said in chat you only wanted to source him "so you didn't have to hear him bitching". SeaTerror (talk) 21:07, August 3, 2013 (UTC) What exactly is the deal with Greg and this wiki? I've heard that there were some issues but not what those issues were. 21:57, August 3, 2013 (UTC)